Rodarte - Front Row - Fall 2010 MBFW

Thurston Moore’s campaign to turn the internet against him rolls on. Earlier this week the former Sonic Youth frontman told The Fly that the affair that sunk his 27-year marriage to Sonic Youth bandmate Kim Gordon carried on in secret for several years before he and Gordon called it quits, that he was bummed out over the end of his marriage (“It’s pretty heavy”), and that he’s “in a really romantic place” with Eva Prinz, the woman with whom he carried on the affair. The feminist website Jezebel criticized Moore’s comments Wednesday in a post called “Thurston Moore Confirms He Is A Dick,” which inspired Moore to retaliate against what he calls Jezebel’s “gender fascism” on Facebook. Here’s Moore’s full post:

This thing just gets uglier and uglier, doesn’t it? In other news, as Jezebel points out, Gordon is contributing a piece to The Wall Street Journal this week, and her stipple drawing looks like this:

Comments (54)
  1. Okay, well what if you would say the exact same thing about a female who treated their significant other as he has? There are people who genuinely regard cheating and not feeling that bad about it as the mark of a scumbag, regardless of gender. People see you for what you are now, Thurston, so get used to it and stop blaming everyone else.

  2. I think you’re going to find very few people who will sympathize with Moore and not think of him as a “dick” these days, but I also do think that in the context of Jezebel being a feminist website, he does make a point. If Kim were the person cheating, would they have shamed her as well? Would it even have been a story? And then I look at another popular indie musician like Mish Way of White Lung, a feminist herself who has also admitted in an article for Salon, “I have cheated on every single boyfriend I have ever had.” It’s a confusing double-standard when you consider that, and I think Jezebel set them up for this knocking by making it seem like cheating is exclusive to just men.

    tl:dr; Everyone is a hypocritical asshole.

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      • I’m looking at more from a perspective of their action being on the same level, whether it be self-aware and accountable or not. Mish Way doesn’t seem at all apologetic about that detail in that piece — she seems to accept it as a way of her life — so I’m not seeing what you’re trying to say here in that either of their actions is more justifiable than the other. Cheating is cheating. There’s no grey area in the definition.

        The double standard, by the way, is that Jezebel is a feminist website who pounced on the chance to turn out a tabloid story about a musician cheating on their other when there are clearly many examples of female musicians out there doing just the same. Because Thurston is “an aging indie rock cool” guy and the person he cheated on is Kim, an “ageless indie rock cool lady,” it just reads like a bunch of pissed off female writers reaching for some low hanging fruit to show the world that — as always, men are horrible, unfaithful dicks.

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          • I did read the Mish’s article closely and did see the sentence where she calls it selfish and so forth, but I’m not sure how someone writing a personal essay differs than Thurston giving an interview. They both admit to doing the same dirty deed, with the only difference being their choice of wording and public approach. Her essay also did not say anything along the lines of wanting to stop being an unfaithful lover, so there’s that. I’m not sure what you are asking for — Some form of pardon for her because she was more introspective about discussing the subject of being unfaithful, in addition to cuckolding and fetishes? I can look past the latter two — to each their own — but I said it already, and I will say it again: Cheating is cheating. At the end of the day, some one / people is / are getting hurt as a consequence and that is amongst one of the most terrible actions that one person can do to another.

            As for Jezebel, did I say I was surprised at what Jezebel wrote? No.
            But do I feel like Thurston is barking up the wrong tree? Not really.
            Do I feel like both sides deserve each other? Yes, I do. It’s like watching two morons argue with each other.


          • It’s also a feminist tabloid with a huge audience, so it holds considerable influence over its readership and Internet users in general. The fact that the ‘gum and Pitchfork and a few others bothered publishing it gives credence to Jezebel as an influential online news rag that’s worth paying attention to.

            I don’t care about this issue at all – I’m not defending Jezebel’s opinion or Moore. The story is dumb to begin with and really no one’s business, but I find the conversation interesting. All I’m saying is Jezebel not JUST a “feminist tabloid.” It’s a community (like this one) and some of the commenters on that story have peculiar and aggressive attitudes toward male infidelity that aren’t all that reasonable.

          • I believe it Thurston Moore who responded to Jezebel. Pitchfork and Stereogum reported the original story from The Fly, and then later reported Moore’s response about the Jezebel article. I don’t even read Jezebel but I am aware of its vibe. And its masthead says “Celebrity, Sex, Fashion for Women. Without Airbrushing.” So yes that is what it is. Mainly what I’m responding to here is the very boring rant about Jezebel being an outrageous tabloid. Yes we all knew that, OK move along.

          • You’re boring.

        • “The double standard, by the way, is that Jezebel is a feminist website who pounced on the chance to turn out a tabloid story about a musician cheating on their other when there are clearly many examples of female musicians out there doing just the same.”

          how are getting upvoted for this garbage

    • dang, i didn’t know that about Mish Way. i love White Lung, that’s really disappointing.

    • I think this is a fair point. A perfect example of this is jezebel’s use of Chris Brown’s admission that he “lost his virginity” at the age of 8 as evidence that he is an asshole, when instead, this is obviously childhood sexual assault.

      I think jezebel likes to rip people apart but has a hard time maintaining the standard it sets for others – which is fine, everyone slips. But glass houses and whatnot maybe a more measured approach would be helpful. Then again, gawker etc. thrives on the vitriol of the general public, so, it should be expected.

      • I may be thinking of an article I read elsewhere, but I think the point was that Chris Brown is an asshole for presenting what was obviously a sexual assault as a sexual conquest that proves how much of a stud he is. He said you start having sex at 8 so you can be “beast mode” when your older, so its not like he’s agonizing over this, and I think the fact that he was totally unreflective about the sexual assault aspect or how blatantly compensatory his fronting looked is what they were ripping him for.

        But more importantly, he’s fucking Chris Brown and no one ever will or ever should give that scumbag the benefit of the doubt ever again.

        • Ummmm I think anytime sexual assault is involved you give victims a Mulligan. Brown probably chooses to view his experience as a “conquest” because the truth of the matter is pretty horrific. He is an asshole though. Would never dispute that.

  3. Oh yeah, this will definitely go down well.

  4. I have an extreme dislike of Jezebel for many reasons. At this point they’ve turned into a bastardized version of a feminist website, almost the extreme opposite of what they were when they started.

    That said, if you have a multi-year affair with someone you are, in fact, a dick.

    • Jezebel is a terrible gossipmongering website that likes to encourage women to resent other women while claiming to be “feminists,” but if you’re Thurston Moore and have just unapologetically confessed to a six-year affair with a much younger woman, the last thing you want to do is hurl “men’s rights”-sounding insults at this time.

      • Yeah, I have minimal sympathy for Jezebel, which for an ostensibly feminist website has some pretty questionable gender politics, but Thurston’s showing a major lack of self-awareness here. Gender fascism? Promoting hate by imperialist blather? What are these, outtakes from a terrible college freshman term paper?

        I like a good beef, but this particular beef is not good news for anyone, unless you like beef that tastes painfully awkward and sad.

    • Yeah, Thurston isn’t exactly in a position to be picking fights. My problem with Jezebel is that it shows how dangerous the Gawker system can be: Take a topic of real importance and need for thoughtful editorial, and then grind it through a click-baiting, dishonest-snark machine that just prints money in amounts directly proportional to internet outrage and ill will. IF the writers at Jezebel actually believe they are being earnest, that’s sad, but ultimately there’s no honesty there.

      • The Gawker system and every other so-called media website out there. It’s unfortunate that everyone is so obsessed with click-bait that they can’t actually write thoughtful pieces anymore. I’ve even noticed at places like the Atlantic, which at one time was considered a respectable magazine. It is very worrying.

        • I mean there’s a lot of stuff in this nu-media to get worried about. If the Atlantic is succumbing to it, that’s a borderline national tragedy, some of the best articles I’ve ever read on any topic has come from that paper.

          I was reading about Kierkegaard’s ideas on the press in his day (OHMAIGAWD WHADDANERD) and it REALLY made me think of Gawker. He was talking about a “reflective age without passion.” In other words, people would now have endless amounts of information on endless topics for people to sit, reflect upon and come to a conclusion and feel enlightened by that conclusion, without ever having to actually DO anything, or have an expertly informed opinion. There’s no real decision to act to be made most of the time. It really made me rethink how I use the internet and where I go.

  5. This whole thing is just eww. I was initially attracted to “indie” culture because I thought it was separate from this petty, gossipy bullshit but recently page views have made where everyone can revel in the celebrity trash of their idols and bring every one down to the lowest common denominator. I thought we were all supposed to be better than this. Write a fucking song about it y’all like musicians have been for eternity. instead of airing it in the open and make this nonsense appear on our beloved music sites when there’s actual real music to discuss #teamwhogivesafuck

  6. The internet isn’t a place where people can acknowledge and respect the nuance in other people’s choices. Everyone is an expert on how somebody else out to be living. It’s unnecessary though. Kim Gordon and Thurston Moore are accountable to each other. Not writers who compose their thoughts in listicle form. To even have an opinion on their situation is a gross miscalculation of my relevance as a music fan.

  7. I don’t know why anyone would be surprised that Jezebel posted that article. Kim Gordon is a major feminist icon, of course they would. Moore basically came out and said ‘Oh yeah, our marriage is over, it was really heavy’ without acknowledgement of any hurt done to Gordon. They were married for 27 years and have children. Obviously this is a personal issue but then why was he discussing it in the first place? Did he think people wanted to know that he ‘was in a really romantic place right now’. Fuck this response. I may not like Jezebel but gender fascism? Cry me some more MRA tears dude.

  8. Somehow this whole debacle doesn’t taint the music for me, probably because I like all of Kim’s songs the most anyways.

  9. To say calling Thurston a dick for what he did is unfair would be ridiculous. That’s the exact label he has earned himself. Although I will say he does have a bit of a point here with the Jezebel thing, just because we all know if it were the other way around and Kim had done what he did there’s absolutely no way Jezebel would put out a piece called “Kim Gordon Confirms She Is A ‘C-Word’”.

    • I think the whole point is these are comments made by media outlets about an intimate relationship between two people. Shouldn’t be open to public speculation, really.

      Also — Why do you think we don’t know much about the relationship between Ira Kaplan and Georgia Hubley? Because they don’t comment on it.

    • It’s worth pointing out that calling a woman a “cunt” isn’t nearly the same as calling a man a “dick”….

      I get your point though. If the roles were reversed, Jezebel would either ignore the story altogether or force it into a narrative where Kim is some kind of sexually liberated protagonist, because that’s how Jezebel rolls.

  10. I wonder what actual feminists like Kathleen Hanna or Corin Tucker think of this. People who live feminism and music in their lives, not like Jezebel writers who create online gender fascism with their lives. My guess is people like Kathleen or Corin think that this is a complex, unfortunate human situation that can’t be intelligently commented on if you don’t know Thurston and Kim personally, but I could be wrong.

  11. No one knows what exactly was going on at the end of their relationship, so no one is really in the place to judge. That said, Thurston Moore invited this shitstorm when he opened his mouth about it and shouldn’t be surprised that cyber-soapbox pseudo-feminists with strong opinions on every bit of hearsay and conjecture would pounce on this. He’s not really in any place to play the victim.

    But most importantly, any self proclaimed Sonic Youth fan who attempts to distill this into a “Team Moore” vs. “Team Gordon” issue is being a jackass (especially if he/she writes for a popular indie music site *cough* Breihan *cough). Anyone who gives a shit about one of the most important bands of the last several decades should not cheapen them by giving a shit about this trashy TMZ gossip.

  12. fuck all you motherfuckers #TeamShelley

  13. Man, if you’ve been married for 27 years then there’s some real shit that goes on no matter who you are. Who’s to judge? Not sure, but I think the rules have changed pretty significantly on marriage and everything. No opinion, just observation

  14. I don’t know, people. I saw Body/Head play our contemporary art museum and I stood just a few feet from Kim. And, man, let me tell ya, she is one intensely scary lookin’ lady.

  15. Feminism frequently celebrates the ending of a relationship with a man. I see no reason he should be shamed for recognizing that he didn’t want to be trapped to that women and wanted to move on to someone better. If he’s to be shamed for moving on, it seems that women who do the same ought to be as well, but they are not.

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  17. How come spammers so often type like they’re mentally disabled?

  18. Moore and Gordon are both predatory. Moore just doesn’t care about trying to hide it.

  19. You know who doesn’t bother with this shit? Lee, that’s who.


  20. Here’s the part that escapes me; why is it even a story? Well, it’s a story because Kim and Thurston keep talking about it. And it’s a story because our sick tabloid society will continue to eat up those empty calories as if they actually contain some nutritional value. They don’t. I could not possibly care less about this from whatever angle you want to spin it. PEOPLE cheat. Men and women. End of story.

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