I definitely agree that he at least attempts to construct a persona. I'm sure he's aware of how he's perceived by the public and does try to feed into it sometimes--but just because he's aware of his persona and at time feeds into it doesn't mean he's fully in control of it. I don't think his persona has been fully constructed by him, aware of and expecting how he will be reacted to--I think a good deal of it is just him reacting to how he's perceived and, in response, trying to take control of his persona.
If his life is like a circus and he's the ringleader, I don't think he's successful at orchestrating everything, because once in a while something will happen like a lion gets bewildered and bites someone's hand off or the clown juggling flaming pins will accidentally catch one on the flaming end.
Anyways, good debate, BTW. You've made many good points and been entirely civil, so I think this has been rather productive all around.
I agree about the Chris Rock skit. It's absolutely awful.
But I honestly don't think all the stunts Kanye has pulled have been about free advertising and hype. The "all press is good press" trope is only accurate to a certain point; I have no doubt that his interruption of Taylor Swift had a significantly negative effect on his sales right away. He canceled an enormous tour with Lady GaGa--I'm sure because her agents realized this would be a horrible career move on her part following Kanye's VMA incident.
And sales of his album, while strong, are about on par with his numbers for "808s and Heartbreak," but nowhere near those of "Graduation" and "Late Registration" so far. I think if he weren't such a polarizing figure, he probably could have smashed his sales numbers for those albums.
It seems to me like they give some artists undue credit for circumstances or actions that are incidental to their talent rather than examples of it--as if so often being a hypocritical, conflicted egomaniac who has to constantly make amends contributes to Kanye's talent as an artist. It certainly makes him more interesting as a pop culture phenomenon, but I don't think he's aiming at achieving artistic greatness (nor does he reach it) by those means.
He's just incidentally a batshit crazy guy who can't handle the spotlight, but produces some excellent rap music. The fact that he e-mailed some chick a picture of his dick and caused a scene during the VMAs doesn't somehow make his music greater than it is. And while production on the album is stellar, there are some great guest appearances and Ye's flow has never been better, you've got to acknowledge that the lyrical content is extremely lacking when he rarely ever says anything more compelling than "No more drugs for more--religion and pussy is all I need."
I was extremely disappointed by oM's album. I, like SG, would not have included it in the top ten nor top 50. I expected so much more out of him after "Skeletal Lamping."
He's not shit, but there's no way his was the top album.
Unfortunately, I'd say this was a relatively weak year for music overall. Nothing at all has blown me away like MPP, Bitte Orca and Veckatimest did last year.
I thought you were being very clear. And then I thought Comehomenow was saying you should have added 3 to your list of unlistenable albums, but that doesn't quite make sense, so I think you're correct--he misunderstood you and thought you considered "Teen Dream" one of the albums that was unlistenable.
Deakin actually did play on "Strawberry Jam." There were some guitars on that album, but I think the group as a whole was probably just moving towards a more sample and synth-based style, and went further in that direction MPP, which had even fewer guitars.
"touches the pulse of life experience." "I’d rather hear *the pain, redemption, love and spiritual awakening of Corgan* then some hipster D.B." "He once truthfully and tellingly said that Pavement don’t write emotional personal songs…and they don’t which is one of the many reasons they are hipster indie posers and not *true artistic vision bearing beating heart musical Gods..like Corgan.*" "they are absolutely irrelevant to *the whole range of human experience* unless you yourself are a doltish stoner slacker" "Pavement and Smashing Pumpkins both epitomize what is real and what is fake." (Emphasis added.)
Now I will be the first to dismiss this line of criticism and point out how often it is inaccurate and overused BUT--pretentious much?
You would get a thumbs-down from me if for no other reason than "true artistic vision bearing beating heart musical Gods...like Corgan."
I gave you a thumbs up in spite of how vehemently I disagree with ranking Machina above Terror Twilight, but only because I agree just as strongly with the rest of your post.
Might I suggest that, from now on, the post-Machina "Smashing Pumpkins" always be referred to as "The Smashing Pumpkins"?
And perhaps they now serve no function (aside from nostalgia) and have "no love"/new material, but at least it's better than their only function being to desecrate the memory of a beloved band (*cough cough*--I'm also looking at you, Rivers.)
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