awesome first single – hopefully this will wash away the bad taste of that asap mixtape last year
i admire his tenacity to change his eating habits, even if his reasoning is a little bizarre. the 44th birthday 2+2=4 thing is pretty ridiculous.
this kind of experiment isn’t really something that hasn’t been done before. for anyone who might be even a little interested in why or how people decide to become vegan, the documentary vegucated shows what happens when 3 people agree to go vegan for 6 weeks. it’s on netflix.
my bad – it has the curtain call artwork
my bad – it has the curtain call artwork
and come on, no guilty conscience?
i’ll spar with anyone willing to say MMLP is better than ELP (it isn’t), but leaving any SSLP songs off this list is just ridiculous, to the point that it almost seems spiteful here
try approaching it as a really aggressive shoegaze album, with headphones
i’m in agreement with a lot of those. i probably couldn’t put together a top 50 of all the records i’ve heard this year, but definitely a top 10 with any of those – chvrches at #1
i realize icona pop was probably excluded on the basis of top 40 radio play, but i really grooved on that whole record
although the past 10 or so christmases have been hit or miss for this band, that was pretty lovely
i don’t need gold plated dinnerware at thanksgiving when i have you spelling it all from fox news, grandpa
eh, i thought her most well-known singing performance was in les miz
not only did you miss my point entirely on b12, but you continue to insert your own common beliefs into the argument. so this is tough. and also, by criticizing people for their diet choices, you’re basically patronizing them as well. so i think i’m justified how i addressed your argument.
1. though you’re right some do and some don’t, that’s not based on “personal feelings about what torture is.” it either is or it isn’t. while i can’t provide any proof that chickens hate the closed-in conditions, that pigs hate getting pumped full of antibiotics, or that cows hate their udders semi-permanently connected to vaccum milking machines, i at least identify with those who choose to avoid products associated with raising animals that way. i’m sorry you do not, and i’m sorry you have your very own definition. i’m also sorry you enjoy drinking milk for $2 a gallon guaranteed to contain at least a few milligrams of cow pus.
2. again, i said b12 is essential, but there is research that shows during the course of human evolution, it may not have been in your words “a biological necessity.” take a look:
as for the slavery argument, i read that twice and uh, no listen: i’m still talking about science here. i’m not understanding why you’re veering into recent human history rather than pay attention to, you know, a few million years back. that comparison makes no sense.
3. i got what you were saying, and i know you’re willing to stretch that argument into telling me, like, that carton of rice milk someone buys is probably linked to a couple hundred fish deaths in a pond where chilean farmers dumped harvest machine refuse into the water instead of properly composting it. i get it. and yes, 100% conservation and awareness is impossible. but part of making that dietary choice of being vegan/vegetarian is to continually improve yourself by doing the research and enlightening yourself and your own consumerism. you know, the opposite of thinking that 100% or nothing, no in between. shitting on others who choose to do so and continuing to defensively justify your current eating habits just because you don’t know/don’t care what was in that big mac you had for lunch.
it all goes back to that stupid picture she posted so proudly. no kidding eating ice cream isn’t going full-blast 100% vegan, just like you can’t always be 100% aware of what you eat. but the point is that ignorance just flies in the face of striving to be a better vegan altogether, something vegans and even vegetarians hold as kind of a value. i’m just saying, i get why they’re mad.
i suppose your smoking analogy holds a little water. but let’s put it in context. say there’s a coalition of people out there that are vehemently against tobacco. they don’t even like e-cigarettes. you nod your head in agreement in conversation with those people, and proclaim that since you’ve only smoked a couple cigarettes in your life and you condemn that lifestyle, you’re with them. and they’re willing to welcome you into the fold.
and then say, one day, you find a cigarette in your car. it’s a great brand, looks delicious, and although it’s basically been produced by the manufacturer to promote an upcoming movie (“tobaccoman 2″), you go back to your house, fire up your computer, light up your cigarette, and proudly display that cigarette to the entire world via webcam/tumblr with the caption “JUST THIS ONCE, GUYS.” in return, you’re condemned by the rest of the non-tobacco community.
then you cry out to the rest of the world that those people are mean, that you’re both a non-smoker and a smoker, but you’re still in league with the tobacco-hating world anyway. i simply cannot sympathize with you, “smoker” or “non-smoker.”
that’s true. she’s the one who took hold of the label, she’s the one who should deal with the consequences.
1. nobody said people were torturing animals. but factory farms do end up torturing animals. that’s undeniable fact. and the sole basis of vegetarianism/veganism isn’t “because of torture.” it’s because the act of either killing something living and putting it into your mouth, or seeing how those living things are killed, handled, and given to consumers, is disgusting to some people. it’s a personal choice, and if you’ve met people who don’t think that choice is personal enough to keep it to themselves and not blab on about how morally superior they are, i understand. but don’t transpose vegans being “moral” and vegans being “annoying” and saying they are one in the same.
2. awesome chart, but it does nothing to explain why i should eat meat. nobody’s arguing that humans have evolved for centuries relying on b12, but that’s because they have a history of eating meat through evolution, becoming a species having to rely on b12. meat-eaters saying “because we’ve been doing this all along means we should continue doing it,” to me at least, is more eye-rolling than talking to annoying vegans.
3. wow. you seriously made the argument “since we kill animals by mistake we should just eat ‘em anyway.” and then justified it with tales of rabbits being run over by farm machines. i don’t need to say much else.
i already made my case against continuing to do things just for the fact we’ve always done them. but that’s just one reason. another is because factory farming destroys the earth. i know since you took a shit earlier in the day and flushed the toilet, you might think poopies disappear like magic. imagine that times a million, several seconds a day, on farms around the world. how do you deal with that waste? does it disappear? or do you send it to a waste treatment plant? and do you believe your 3rd grade science textbook and buy into the idea farming is a self-sustaining system, where animal waste is spread onto crops, presto, taken care of? no worries about run-off into our country’s plentiful fresh water system, dwindling by the day? zero cares about 2.8 billion metric tons of CO2 emission let into our atmosphere per year?
@ Matt McCandless
>If I abstain from animal products for 10 years and then one day decide to eat one pint of ice cream, am I not vegan any more?Was I not vegan before?<
yes you were, and nobody's making the argument that she was never a vegan. my central question is whether she can continue calling herself vegan. i don't think she can.
that's fine if you feel like the borders within a lifestyle are meant to be broken every so often. i can agree and identify with that. and yes, grimes can do whatever she wants, eat whatever she wants, think however she wants. my main concern with this is that by breaking the rules of veganism whenever she feels like it, it really dimishes the credibility advocating such a lifestyle by openly talking about it while still claiming to be a vegan. what she should have done is say "1 day hiatus from abstaining from consuming any animals or animal products is being had starting NOw.” because vegans don't cheat. they may be mostly assholes, but they don't cheat.
my problem with some vegans is the aspect of looking down on anyone else who isn't vegan, even vegetarians. the comments they make, the preaching, the constant self-righteousness they have while maintaining a diet that consists of mostly earth balance. it really has to do with the person, not the vegan/vegetarian/carnivore, and how they conduct themselves. but i do think that's the only true definition of an "asshole vegan." if a fellow vegan starts cheating on what they're consuming, they don't deserve to be ostracized or condemned publicly. but they do deserve to be admonished and told they aren't vegan anymore.
i understand she’s a nice person, she’s not judgemental, and that kind of thinking has informed being a vegetarian for me, too. i’ve spent too much time fielding protein arguments and rolled eyes over the past year that i’ve spent a lot of time thinking, you know, what the fuck.
also, i’m all for the idea of roping in people to think about their health and consumer choices by talking about it, arguing, and putting it out there. otherwise, nobody can listen to what’s not said. she put it out there, and now it’s got people’s attention. great.
that being said, i think your post could use a little bit of clarification. my central argument (and first post on this thread) was that she’s continuing to call herself vegan. and i can see why that would rub vegans the wrong way. it does not illicit an asshole response like the person who baited her, but nobody can deny she’s breaking some of the central tenements of veganism. naturally, in return she’s going to get shit from the people who strive to attain that diet every day. it’s a tough diet, but it’s rewarding to those who can play by the rules. i’m just saying, i get that there’s a nice way to admonish her and the person she addressed is clearly not nice, but i get where the backlash is coming from. she’s not “vegan” anymore.
and even then by calling herself a “sometimes vegan,” i’m still on the side of the offended vegans out there. it not only calls for 1.) not eating animals but 2.) the products they produce. those are really the only two rules. not only is grimes making an exception to ice cream, she goes on to put beef stew and cake on the list. i mean, ugh. at first i was on her side, but i’ve now read it a couple times, and with each read i groan a little more. that’s nice she refuses to offend people over it, but she’s not exactly being true to herself as a vegan. maybe she should rename her new diet and stop using that word.
another way to put it: i’m an ex-smoker. i smoked for ten years, tried roughly half that span to quit, and finally quit five years ago. it was very difficult for me and kind of a tough time in my life, and i know it’s tough for some people too. you can’t smoke a cigarette and continue calling yourself an ex-smoker or a non-smoker. if someone bummed a cigarette from the girl next to me and told her that he was a “sometimes smoker,” i wouldn’t care. but if he bummed a smoke and said, “i’m a non-smoker,” i dunno. i’d be kind of offended over what i’ve gone through to finally call myself a non-smoker.
i didn’t say she can’t be vegan ever again. but i mean, if you’re adding ice cream to your “vegan diet,” that doesn’t make you vegan anymore. vegans are asshole militants, but part of having a militant diet is that your choices are limited. she’s choosing to make that exception and continue calling herself vegan.
i don’t choose to submit myself to a steak once in awhile and continue to call myself vegetarian. but if i slip up and have a steak and choose to never do it again, then i guess i can continue calling myself vegetarian. she’s not doing that.
really, i thought my response basically took care of your argument. give it another read.
i mean, i’m not blaming her or saying she’s fake or something she’s not. i honestly have a degree respect for people who say they are “sometimes vegetarian” because at least they’re informed on some level. really, i can’t think of many other dietary choices with slimmer choices besides veganism – it’s a tough go. but she’s choosing to break a fundamental ideology of veganism and she’s still calling herself “vegan.” why not a “sometimes vegan”?
that analogy is way off. instead of democrat vs. republican, it’s more like republican vs. neocon. and even that is not a great example, since there are way too many ideologies involved in being with the two biggest political parties in this country. vegetarianism to me only has one ideology. and veganism has two, by my count. you make an exception and break either of those ideologies, and you belong to another category of eaters. if you were a democrat and started talking shit about roughly half the things democrats adhere to, you’d probably get tossed out of that body too.
if i could upvote again, i would
i’m a new vegetarian with no current aspirations to go vegan. i enjoy cheese way too much. my decision was mostly based on seeing factory farming, pink slime, etc. rather than how it hurts animals. i mean, i don’t like animals being hurt either, but i just don’t want that shit in my mouth anymore.
that being said, she’s not vegan. she needs to stop calling herself vegan. she does have a real asshole on her hands there, but adhering to such a diet and calling yourself vegan requires a large amount of self-discipline that she clearly doesn’t have. there’s no shame in calling yourself vegetarian.
speaking of which, if someone eats meat, i have no problem with their personal decision to do so. but that being said, it’s been my limited experience that it’s a lot harder to deal with ignorant and indignant meat eaters than it is militant vegans.
i’m pretty happy with this list. i had every expectation while clicking on the link that paper planes would deliberately be left off to antagonize everyone, but it’s there. i think the very idea of using straight to hell should’ve been a wake up call to any rapper out there: they had their chance to sample one of the more obvious ready-to-cut clash songs out there, but they blew it.
and i can agree that bad girls is her best song. not only does it reaffirm that m.i.a. can actually rap, but the production is totally perfect. the song itself lends a great pro-female argument, but that video: my god. the stunts, the imagery, the islamic women driving cars. it’s probably one of the boldest statements in recent music video history.
i still think the “stutterpop” you describe is really just fallout of the m.i.a./diplo breakup: some of the songs here (and pretty much all of /\/\/\Y/\) are just pale schizo-industrial imitations of the cohesive cut ‘n’ paste diplo & switch tracks that made her first two albums so wonderful.
i still think m.i.a. shines best as the rapper who did paper planes and bad girls. part of me is enthusiastic about the risks being taken here, and i do think she’s in good hands with the weeknd. both tracks with him here are pretty phenomenal. but i still think the past 5 or 6 years have been wasted on /\/\/\Y/\, nutty interviews and the super bowl controversy. she may be varied, talented in different areas, but nobody can say she’s focused.
i posted earlier to say how happy i was by the ranking for this list because, well, i was just happy stereogum didn’t fuck this up. but now i’m struck by the prose of each section included. i’ve always felt that countless other subjective writers have failed to match both my unbridled enthusiasm for this band and my recognition of their shortcomings. stereogum manages to piss me off from time to time with awkward writing and ugly cynicism, but i don’t find any of that here.
i’d just like to say this author writes about my favorite band beautifully and does great justice to sp’s catalogue. it’s a great critical analysis of their records. many writers haven’t been particularly kind to this band over the past 20 years, and even the sympathetic ones have sometimes come off as rude and clumsy. i usually roll my eyes when one of these lists gets posted on this site, but this was an incredibly entertaining and fulfilling read. thanks.